Siredo solmisōlfa

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Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby rémimifa » January 17th, 2013, 12:14 pm

This is to test how well I've understood the grammar of Solresol. Please let me know what errors I've made and any suggestions you have. Thanks in advance!

I've attempted to translate the paragraph below from the English Wikipedia article on Solresol.

Siredo solmisōlfa

Ĺa ladosi solrēsol faremi fasolla lasi redodo fa relala larefa mi solmisolmi. Sire falare faremi redodo lasi mirerefa mimido solmisolfa midorēmi mire falare faremi soldofala mi faresol. Domifare redodo solmisolfa dosi, dōlamido, mire fasolmifa mido fasidosol ĺa ladosi: ladośi do falare fasidosol dof'a mimireḿi la solresol english.

Phonology

Solresol words are made up of from one to five syllables or notes. Each of these may be one of only seven basic phonemes, which may in turn be accented or lengthened. There is another phoneme, silence, which is used to separate words: words cannot be run together as they are in English.
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Re: Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby shanoxilt » January 19th, 2013, 11:35 am

Thank you for your contribution! I'll share it on Reddit now.
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Re: Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby Shido » January 23rd, 2013, 12:35 pm

In modern texts in Solresol there are not “errors”, because Solresol has not comprehensive normative grammar. So, if one tries to write in Solresol, as Sudre and Gajewski told, one can not make mistake! Now Solresolists may only discuss and make personal suggestions.
First of all, I very like your compound nomination for “phonology”, siredo solmisôlfa. Such word combinations have a great future in Solresol!
Then, in phrase lasi redodo fa relala larefa (first sentence) for English “to” I would prefer mimidosi (however, unfortunately, dictionaries of Solresol have not many prepositions, and those prepositions, which is made by Sudre, have vague senses because of lack of examples).
My opinion about last sentence: I think, that good word for “there is” is mila. I’m confused because of word order in the beginning of last sentence; so, I would prefer solmisolfa redodo dosi domifare... And instead of word fasidosol (mire fasolmifa mido fasidosol ĺa ladosi) I would prefer fadofado ‘isolate’, because first verb connects with life of traveler more, than fadofado.
I think, that besides punctuation marks for representation of logical relations between concepts (words) and sentences in Solresol usage of special words (conjunctions) is necessary; for example, after colon in last sentence for me something like “because” (solfa or mirefafa) seems necessary.
And I can’t understand word fasidosol after colon in last sentence (instead of “run together” in English). Maybe, falare redodo mimirefâ dosi? (to be one after/near another). Also I see a lack of preposition “in” before la solresol english.
However my comments is mere my honest opinion, and I don’t see some “errors” in this translation. And I very like attempt to write about Solresol in Solresol itself!
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Re: Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby rémimifa » February 4th, 2013, 4:18 pm

Solsi Shido! Domi faremi fasi misolsi mido sidosol redo lāfala re dosolsimi milalafa sīfami.

Shido wrote:Then, in phrase lasi redodo fa relala larefa (first sentence) for English “to” I would prefer mimidosi (however, unfortunately, dictionaries of Solresol have not many prepositions, and those prepositions, which is made by Sudre, have vague senses because of lack of examples).


I like your suggestion. I wonder if there is a list of prepositions somewhere?

I think, that good word for “there is” is mila.


Perhaps mila is a clearer word. I tried to use domifare as an impersonal verb, which I think Gajeweski uses without a subject. It's not clear to me if domifare is one of these impersonal verbs (but I used it anyway).

I think, that besides punctuation marks for representation of logical relations between concepts (words) and sentences in Solresol usage of special words (conjunctions) is necessary; for example, after colon in last sentence for me something like “because” (solfa or mirefafa) seems necessary.


That's a good point. I can imagine that when speaking Solresol it would be important to use clear conjunctions given that the pauses and stress we use in other languages are important in Solresol to separate and differentiate words. (I don't know if there are any rules or conventions about the use of punctuation in Solresol?)

Thanks again Shido - your comments are very helpful for me!
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Re: Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby Doresifado » February 4th, 2013, 9:02 pm

Cool! Awesome job, Rémimifa!

I'll give my input, I guess. :D

rémimifa wrote:Ĺa ladosi solrēsol faremi fasolla lasi redodo fa relala larefa mi solmisolmi.


rémimifa wrote: Shido wrote:Then, in phrase lasi redodo fa relala larefa (first sentence) for English “to” I would prefer mimidosi (however, unfortunately, dictionaries of Solresol have not many prepositions, and those prepositions, which is made by Sudre, have vague senses because of lack of examples).

I like your suggestion. I wonder if there is a list of prepositions somewhere?


So, I think one pressing issue we should probably come to a consensus on is how to express the past participle (in this case "made") in Solresol. You guys seem to be in favor of the Gajewskian model of just using the verb as is, whereas I prefer using "sisi" (so, "sisi fasolla") because I think it'd avoid ambiguity down the line. What do you guys think?

Also, I think either "fa" or "mimidosi" works in this case. I don't see any difference in interpretation based on which of the two is used.

rémimifa wrote: I think, that good word for “there is” is mila.


Perhaps mila is a clearer word. I tried to use domifare as an impersonal verb, which I think Gajeweski uses without a subject. It's not clear to me if domifare is one of these impersonal verbs (but I used it anyway).


Hmmm...I guess "mila" could be used here, although it's meaning ("voilà") is a bit different from "there is"/"il y a" in French. I'd prefer using "domifare" or just starting the sentence with "faremi," as that's what's done in some languages (like Polish: Czy jest sok? = Is there any juice?). What's done in Russian, Shido?

Impersonal verbs are another grammatical point for which we need to establish some sort of convention. I can't remember if we covered this in some other part of the forum...I think we need to make a grammar sticky similar to the dictionary updates one :D

Oh! And word order. Do adjectives come before or after the noun? And where are we going to put adverbs? Word order comes into play in this text for example with "sire" and "dosi." Are we going to choose only before nouns? Only after nouns? Maybe mirror French directly? I don't know.

rémimifa wrote:Domifare redodo solmisolfa dosi, dōlamido, mire fasolmifa mido fasidosol ĺa ladosi: ladośi do falare fasidosol dof'a mimireḿi la solresol english.


So two things here. First, I think "fasidosol" ("se séparer") is intransitive (doesn't take an object) and in this case you need a transitive verb ("separates the words") - so, "lafadola" ("diviser/séparer"). Also, I think it'd be clearer if you said "mimiremi dosoldola la solresol English" mi "mimiremi misisimi la solresol English" ("as in the English language").

And of course, we have to tackle the whole issue of incorporating proper names into Solresol. Yikes...it's starting to feel like there's so much to do to be able to finally just use Solresol :/
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Re: Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby rémimifa » February 5th, 2013, 6:16 am

Solsi Doresifado mido remi sōldola re reḿi sīsolre.

Doresifado wrote:So, I think one pressing issue we should probably come to a consensus on is how to express the past participle (in this case "made") in Solresol. You guys seem to be in favor of the Gajewskian model of just using the verb as is, whereas I prefer using "sisi" (so, "sisi fasolla") because I think it'd avoid ambiguity down the line. What do you guys think?


I was just blindly following Gayjewski's rule the passive. What sort of ambiguity do you think it would create?

Oh! And word order. Do adjectives come before or after the noun? And where are we going to put adverbs? Word order comes into play in this text for example with "sire" and "dosi." Are we going to choose only before nouns? Only after nouns? Maybe mirror French directly? I don't know.


That wasn't clear to me either. I guess I tried to roughly follow French word order, guessing that is probably what Sudre would have intended?

So two things here. First, I think "fasidosol" ("se séparer") is intransitive (doesn't take an object) and in this case you need a transitive verb ("separates the words") - so, "lafadola" ("diviser/séparer"). Also, I think it'd be clearer if you said "mimiremi dosoldola la solresol English" mi "mimiremi misisimi la solresol English" ("as in the English language").


I struggled to find a translation for 'separate', I don't know why. Thanks for lafadola. I agree about using misisimi or dosoldola in that last phrase - those prepositions again! Which do we use for languages? :)

And of course, we have to tackle the whole issue of incorporating proper names into Solresol. Yikes...it's starting to feel like there's so much to do to be able to finally just use Solresol :/


I looked in the forums and Sudre's book for how to deal with proper nouns and I gave up :) what I thought was a short, easy translation turned out to be tricker than I expected!
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Re: Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby Shido » February 6th, 2013, 12:42 am

Maybe, this theme will become most popular theme in all forum! :)

Remimifa wrote:I wonder if there is a list of prepositions somewhere?

Unfortunately, full list of Solresol’s prepositions (even of such words, which is the most necessary) doesn’t exist. It is the matter of future.

Remimifa wrote:(I don't know if there are any rules or conventions about the use of punctuation in Solresol?)

Sudre and Gajewski, as I know, didn’t mention punctuation. Of course, Solresolists use punctuation in writing type of speech. Maybe, in future rules of punctuation will be described in some comprehensive Solresol’s grammar.

Doresifado wrote:You guys seem to be in favor of the Gajewskian model of just using the verb as is, whereas I prefer using "sisi" (so, "sisi fasolla") because I think it'd avoid ambiguity down the line. What do you guys think?

About Past (or Passive) Participle and verb in Passive Voice I think, that both variants are equivalent. Variability of grammar forms is a good feature of constructed international language: each nation can choose evident for it variant without misunderstanding in communication.

Doresifado wrote:Also, I think either "fa" or "mimidosi" works in this case. I don't see any difference in interpretation based on which of the two is used.

I also understand word fa in this case. However I think, that meaning of this word mustn’t be too wide (but I understand, that richness of lexical sense is natural for real communication, and we can’t restrict this richness).

Doresifado wrote:Hmmm...I guess "mila" could be used here, although it's meaning ("voilà") is a bit different from "there is"/"il y a" in French. I'd prefer using "domifare" or just starting the sentence with "faremi," as that's what's done in some languages (like Polish: Czy jest sok? = Is there any juice?). What's done in Russian, Shido?

In this sentence Russian-speakers use equivalent of domifare in the beginning of the phrase :) (like in Solresol’s translation of Remimifa!). Sometimes this verb is omitted or replaced by local adverbs or another adverbial modifiers of place.

Doresifado wrote:Do adjectives come before or after the noun? And where are we going to put adverbs? Word order comes into play in this text for example with "sire" and "dosi." Are we going to choose only before nouns? Only after nouns? Maybe mirror French directly? I don't know.

Remimifa wrote:That wasn't clear to me either. I guess I tried to roughly follow French word order, guessing that is probably what Sudre would have intended?

I think, that correct word’s order is described by Gajewski: two-syllable adjectives precede nouns, adjectives with more than two syllable follow nouns. But this rule can't be rigid (so, we will have "informal Solresol" and "literary Solresol"; existence of different styles is very important for a language).

Doresifado wrote:So two things here. First, I think "fasidosol" ("se séparer") is intransitive (doesn't take an object) and in this case you need a transitive verb ("separates the words") - so, "lafadola" ("diviser/séparer"). Also, I think it'd be clearer if you said "mimiremi dosoldola la solresol English" mi "mimiremi misisimi la solresol English" ("as in the English language").

Remimifa wrote:I struggled to find a translation for 'separate', I don't know why. Thanks for lafadola.

I also thought about lafadola, but I was confused by such circumstance, that this word belonged to the group with arithmetical meaning.

Doresifado wrote:Yikes...it's starting to feel like there's so much to do to be able to finally just use Solresol :/

Remimifa wrote:...what I thought was a short, easy translation turned out to be tricker than I expected!

Yes, to write in Solresol now is like to solve a puzzle! :) But it is very interesting. Full grammar of Solresol will be written only on the basis of real Solresol's texts. So, let's write more in Solresol and clarify the system of this language!
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Re: Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby Doresifado » February 11th, 2013, 9:42 pm

rémimifa wrote:I was just blindly following Gayjewski's rule the passive. What sort of ambiguity do you think it would create?


Hmmm, I'm not coming up with a concrete example, but I was thinking along the lines of saying something like, "I want the washed rag" vs. "I want to the rag to wash (my car, for example)." Of course this latter example could be worded differently as "I want to wash my car with the rag," and in cases of ambiguity, I guess something like "mido" ("for") could be used. I'm sure there are better examples though...

rémimifa wrote:That wasn't clear to me either. I guess I tried to roughly follow French word order, guessing that is probably what Sudre would have intended?


Yeah, I do the same. I just use French grammar as a starting point. I guess we can start there and then see where Solresol goes. 8-)

rémimifa wrote:I agree about using misisimi or dosoldola in that last phrase - those prepositions again! Which do we use for languages? :)


I think this is where we can make a decision for neo-Solresol, because we really don't need both (Garrison, where are you? :mrgreen: ). My preference is for "dosodola," but I have real reason for favoring it. :? And then, besides that...prepositions are a big issue for me. With physical objects, we can come to some sort of consensus across linguistic backgrounds ("on a table," "next to a rock," etc.), but with abstract usage, finding consistency is harder. Why even say "in" a language? Why not "on"? Or "next to"? Or "by"? Where is language actually? :D But I suppose I'm just opening up a can of worms with this, so feel free to ignore my musings. ;)

rémimifa wrote:
I looked in the forums and Sudre's book for how to deal with proper nouns and I gave up :) what I thought was a short, easy translation turned out to be tricker than I expected!


Proper nouns are to be determined. I think for now, your method is fine (la solresol English). The only problem I foresee if we want to start employing the other methods of expressing Solresol (e.g. colors, numbers, etc.), then we need to fit proper names into the 7-syllable schema. Right now the best option, I think, would be to derive new names for proper names based on combinations of already-existing Solresol words.

Shido wrote:Maybe, this theme will become most popular theme in all forum! :)


Heh. :D Yeah, activity on the board ebbs and flows. But here's to getting more activity in 2013!

Shido wrote:Unfortunately, full list of Solresol’s prepositions (even of such words, which is the most necessary) doesn’t exist. It is the matter of future.


We could probably make one up. You've done a pretty exhaustive list of words in the past, and I have my own list of high-frequency words for quick reference, so coming up with something for prepositions shouldn't be so bad.

Shido wrote:In this sentence Russian-speakers use equivalent of domifare in the beginning of the phrase :) (like in Solresol’s translation of Remimifa!). Sometimes this verb is omitted or replaced by local adverbs or another adverbial modifiers of place.


Hurray! hehehe So, so far it looks like the three of us think "domifare" can be used for "there is/are" expressions. Anyone else want to jump in? (C'mon, guys :D )

Shido wrote:I think, that correct word’s order is described by Gajewski: two-syllable adjectives precede nouns, adjectives with more than two syllable follow nouns. But this rule can't be rigid (so, we will have "informal Solresol" and "literary Solresol"; existence of different styles is very important for a language).


Okay, I can go with this, since Sudre doesn't say anything explicitly about this. I have a booklet in Esperanto called "Dore domilado Solresol," which talks about word order a bit, but I don't know on what basis...as it's a fairly new book. But I can check it again.

And what about adverbs? Maybe the best bet is to just start making some sentences in Solresol and seeing what problems arise in understanding, if any.

Have you written any more sentences, Shido? Rémimifa? :)
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Re: Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby shanoxilt » February 12th, 2013, 2:13 am

I have nothing to add, but I thank you two for keeping this forum alive!

If either of you use Tumblr, I can authorize you to post on my Solresol account.
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Re: Siredo solmisōlfa

Postby Shido » February 12th, 2013, 11:31 am

shanoxilt wrote:If either of you use Tumblr, I can authorize you to post on my Solresol account.

Thank you for invitation, but unfortunately I don't use Tumblr and now haven't energy and time for more than one site about Solresol.
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